I've created a database at the state level of employment shrinkage and labor force levels looking at the change from the start of the recession in 12/07 till 03/09.
If anyone would like to take a look, I can email it to you.
I believe my email is on one of the pages. It's my user name at lycos dot com. I don't often check it, so it's best to post a reply on one of my recent comments if you write.
The U.S. is too close to utilization boundaries. With no real avenues to fix the problem (increase jobs, manufacturing, exports), IMHO this is just the beginning of foreign (Asian, Mid-East) investors calling the shots in the U.S.
To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must take our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, we must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts, in our labors and in our amusements. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labor of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy. - Thomas Jefferson
but yet another reason to have EP, so one can look at the facts regardless of what they hope for. ;)
but that was the entire "Shovel ready" argument and it's valid...in order for a temporary stimulus to be effective it must be deployed efficiently as well as timely and unless i inverted some economics text, that is what Keynesian stimulus requires (one of the conditions).
Well, what's really cool about the work you did is you took the time to run a regression analysis, chart the data again and create the graphs.
(I should be so unlazy, but hey folks, give me a break, I'm the site admin/resident geek too!)
But your work deserves high praise for it is one thing to simply type up someone else's original graphs and quite another to investigate from raw data and first principles!
I hope others realize this.
NDD does original research also and I just how all of the EPers realize how much time that takes.
the negative correlation was pretty shocking. I mean seriously.
If we randomly distributed amounts of stimulus cash to the states it would be more likely to actually target boosting employment than what's being done now.
The reception at big orange is mostly positive, but there's some "just give it time" type response.
I hope that they are right, but it's been nearly 4 months since the stimulus was passed.
Each passing month means that the amount of money that has to be spent to fix this grows exponentially.
That negative correlation regression calculation is truly a "are you shittin' me?" sort of result!
On top of this are the addition numbers that stimulus money has gone to "no jobs" as in offshore or using guest workers.
I also just read Robert Reich's piece where he claims we shouldn't worry about manufacturing and it's all on the decline, due to productivity and technological innovation...
so one should note he never seems to manage to deal with this graph in his argument..oops, I guess that goes against philosophy.
You know what I find oh so suspect is the obvious place for Stimulus to create "green jobs", is Detroit as a transition.
Good God, these guys have no shame. Doesn't think remind you of some Victorian era image, where some one is literally grabbing the baby bottle out of the mouth of a newborn, or kicking to the curb some widow out into the snowing, freezing night during Christmas and all of those classic horror stories (which are actually going on right now in year 2009)
DETROIT (Reuters) - For decades, unionized manufacturing jobs have been considered the surest path to middle-class prosperity and realizing the vaunted American dream for blue-collar workers.
The United Auto Workers helped make that dream a reality.
"We created the middle class in America," said Olen Ham, one of the few surviving members of the 1937 "sit-down" strike in Flint, Michigan, which won the first union contract with General Motors Corp.
Later contracts brought paid holidays, pension benefits and health insurance, enabling blue-collar workers to buy cars and homes and to send their children to college.
But the latest concessions by the UAW with automakers Chrysler LLC and GM will make the road to the middle-class much rougher to navigate for the next generation of workers.
Regardless of the contrived "a recovery just around the corner" business, the initial claims for unemployment insurance is flat because this is the summer, after all, with vacationing to put off futile job-searching, with a new wave of internships instead of hiring, and now, for a new first, families are financially bidding on internships at some of the more sought-after corporations, for their college grad-children.
It always returns to what's the economic engine of America? Other than the export of junk paper? Green jobs to be offshored?
The greatest innovation - which we are still existing off of - came from the investment in the largest government research program in history, the NASA/Apollo/Moon Project - and the WWII GI Bill provided the educational funding for the citizen workforce for that!
A never-ending recession is properly termed a Depression, and that is what we are living in.
I'm reading those sets of EIs over and I am thinking about 2001 recession. It seems to me the U.S. never recovered from 2001 and that the U.S. income, i.e. workforce, middle class went more in debt and lost standard of living, income, retirement funds, wealth. It was covered up by the housing bubble.
So, the question is, has their been some sort of wage assumptions in the above set of EIs that has "gone over" a standard deviation and is now having a macro economic effect?
Very good post NDD, instructive for those who don't know about these EIs.
Clearly, the whole thing rides on the back of the recent government giveaways to the banks and to the auto industry. One chink in that armour and down comes the whole edifice, the most obvious future vulnerabilities being the dollar and hyperinflation. Our dear savior may be able to keep the wolf away from the door short-term but time is inexorable and history utterly unforgiving.
There is a certain unreality to the whole orientation of the government to this crisis no small part of which is an illusion about a future in which the past is recreated, a kind of me-generation's nostalgia for amoral, no consequences living, and a certain penchant for the psychopathological. One day these characteristics will, with justice, be so resented, so maligned in public life that Taliban-like treatment of them will seem mild in comparison.
I seriously think China only wants to the U.S. to "fix our economy" to the point it does not stop them from overtaking the world as the #1 economy, which they are on track to do in about 3 more years as I recall (it's amazingly fast, the China PNTR is only 9 years old and the projections are something like that, maybe 5 years).
Finding out just how much of the financial TARP/TALF went to China indirectly might be interesting. I know they demanded the U.S. "protect their investments" but I did not see China as a recipient (France on the other hand was) of any CDS payouts, etc.
New Deal Democrat has a post on the main EIs (economic indicators) and I started thinking about the correlation to this black swan event. In other words, when to the main EIs fail if they have ever failed, as a group?
Anyone want to tackle that analysis? I was thinking events like 9/11, WWII might be good data points.
No, clearly you do not know the statistics on what is going on with guest workers and no they are not here because they have skills not available in the United States, which has been shown in study after study, from the GAO to the NAB.
Also, we don't do that absurd racist xenophobe insult here on EP.
All this yammering is designed to try and get somebody else to solve our problem.
China is already investing domestically which will make their country stronger in the long run.
Eventually our spineless politicians will be forced to make some hard choices that will probably cost their jobs. The final piece in the puzzle is a currency devaluation. China is not going to move on anyone elses timeframe ... the US will be forced to devalue the USD...
... given our insistence on spending five to ten times as much on imprisoning people as is done in the civilized world, we don't have enough left over in state budgets to educate people. And at the same time, the Reagan focus on creating slack labor markets, maintained by Clinton and the Bushes, has led to massive qualifications inflation in many fields, as employers have gone from what they need to what they would substantially benefit from to arbitrary hurdles to get the most gung ho, least trouble making people.
The people in the high unemployment states are often not qualified to do the jobs filled by foreign guest workers, and since the foreign guest workers are far less likely to do inconvenient things like organizing for their rights, it makes a lot of sense for the corporate bottom line to specify arbitrary requirements that unemployed workers for high unemployment states have difficulty in filling.
On the other hand, the concept that we can fix this if only we have enough xenophobia has its own pitfalls.
In this much, we are in the same situation as prior recessions since WWII ... the downturn in consumption demand is not only those who cannot spend, but also those who are not sure whether or not they can spend.
When the economy hits the trough and there is a widespread perception that things have become as bad as they are going to get, those who find that they escaped the ax this time will engage in consumption that was postponed during the period of greatest uncertainty.
The problem is deeper than that ... the problem is, that resiliance by itself is not likely to be sufficient for a strong and sustained recovery ... and absent a Job Guarantee program, a strong and sustained recovery is required to see a substantial increase in employment.
Absent government policy, the four available growth drivers are investment in productive capacity, construction investment, debt-financed consumption, and exports.
Construction investment and debt-financed consumption are squashed as potential growth drivers by the ongoing weakness of balance sheets in the Finance Sector. Investment in productive capacity and exports are quashed by the determination to maintain an overvalued exchange rate, to maintain the lie about the affordability of our network of over 700 overseas bases, and the determination to maintain slack labor markets in service of the profits of large corporations.
And the Stimulus spending already in place is by design intended to cover less than half of the gap between current output and full employment output.
So absent government policy change, the recovery is likely to be sluggish at best, and could well run out of steam once postponed consumption has been met ... it could turn out, in other words, to be the GDP equivalent of the dead cat bounce.
Government policy can address that, but only if Congress decides to do so. And in order for Congress to decide to address the problem, we need a different Congress.
This is quite like the situation in the early years of the Roosevelt administration. If we only had the policies of the first two years of the "New Deal", it would have been a fairly miserable failure. It was, rather, the election of the New Dealers to Congress that led to the political pressure that created the far more important "Second New Deal".
Re ECRI -- they seem to say that the growth rate cycle upturn failed to catch on, and the depression ensued. But, that their leading index(es) anticipated the renewed weakness. This is my understanding of what they say on their site (I may be wrong), www.businesscycle.com, where they also raise the issue of a 'giant error of pessimism' near the end of recessions.
they just have to go look you up in the users profile section.
Putting a dedicated database online, is actually tough, but it's possible.
I've created a database at the state level of employment shrinkage and labor force levels looking at the change from the start of the recession in 12/07 till 03/09.
If anyone would like to take a look, I can email it to you.
I believe my email is on one of the pages. It's my user name at lycos dot com. I don't often check it, so it's best to post a reply on one of my recent comments if you write.
I suppose I should check it.....
I am not really shocked by the article.
The U.S. is too close to utilization boundaries. With no real avenues to fix the problem (increase jobs, manufacturing, exports), IMHO this is just the beginning of foreign (Asian, Mid-East) investors calling the shots in the U.S.
but yet another reason to have EP, so one can look at the facts regardless of what they hope for. ;)
but that was the entire "Shovel ready" argument and it's valid...in order for a temporary stimulus to be effective it must be deployed efficiently as well as timely and unless i inverted some economics text, that is what Keynesian stimulus requires (one of the conditions).
Well, what's really cool about the work you did is you took the time to run a regression analysis, chart the data again and create the graphs.
(I should be so unlazy, but hey folks, give me a break, I'm the site admin/resident geek too!)
But your work deserves high praise for it is one thing to simply type up someone else's original graphs and quite another to investigate from raw data and first principles!
I hope others realize this.
NDD does original research also and I just how all of the EPers realize how much time that takes.
(I love it!)
the negative correlation was pretty shocking. I mean seriously.
If we randomly distributed amounts of stimulus cash to the states it would be more likely to actually target boosting employment than what's being done now.
The reception at big orange is mostly positive, but there's some "just give it time" type response.
I hope that they are right, but it's been nearly 4 months since the stimulus was passed.
Each passing month means that the amount of money that has to be spent to fix this grows exponentially.
That negative correlation regression calculation is truly a "are you shittin' me?" sort of result!
On top of this are the addition numbers that stimulus money has gone to "no jobs" as in offshore or using guest workers.
I also just read Robert Reich's piece where he claims we shouldn't worry about manufacturing and it's all on the decline, due to productivity and technological innovation...
so one should note he never seems to manage to deal with this graph in his argument..oops, I guess that goes against philosophy.
You know what I find oh so suspect is the obvious place for Stimulus to create "green jobs", is Detroit as a transition.
hopefully correctly at Big Orange.
Good God, these guys have no shame. Doesn't think remind you of some Victorian era image, where some one is literally grabbing the baby bottle out of the mouth of a newborn, or kicking to the curb some widow out into the snowing, freezing night during Christmas and all of those classic horror stories (which are actually going on right now in year 2009)
but still, these guys just have no shame.
From Reuters: As UAW fades, so does a path to U.S. prosperity
Regardless of the contrived "a recovery just around the corner" business, the initial claims for unemployment insurance is flat because this is the summer, after all, with vacationing to put off futile job-searching, with a new wave of internships instead of hiring, and now, for a new first, families are financially bidding on internships at some of the more sought-after corporations, for their college grad-children.
It always returns to what's the economic engine of America? Other than the export of junk paper? Green jobs to be offshored?
The greatest innovation - which we are still existing off of - came from the investment in the largest government research program in history, the NASA/Apollo/Moon Project - and the WWII GI Bill provided the educational funding for the citizen workforce for that!
A never-ending recession is properly termed a Depression, and that is what we are living in.
I'm reading those sets of EIs over and I am thinking about 2001 recession. It seems to me the U.S. never recovered from 2001 and that the U.S. income, i.e. workforce, middle class went more in debt and lost standard of living, income, retirement funds, wealth. It was covered up by the housing bubble.
So, the question is, has their been some sort of wage assumptions in the above set of EIs that has "gone over" a standard deviation and is now having a macro economic effect?
Very good post NDD, instructive for those who don't know about these EIs.
Clearly, the whole thing rides on the back of the recent government giveaways to the banks and to the auto industry. One chink in that armour and down comes the whole edifice, the most obvious future vulnerabilities being the dollar and hyperinflation. Our dear savior may be able to keep the wolf away from the door short-term but time is inexorable and history utterly unforgiving.
There is a certain unreality to the whole orientation of the government to this crisis no small part of which is an illusion about a future in which the past is recreated, a kind of me-generation's nostalgia for amoral, no consequences living, and a certain penchant for the psychopathological. One day these characteristics will, with justice, be so resented, so maligned in public life that Taliban-like treatment of them will seem mild in comparison.
I seriously think China only wants to the U.S. to "fix our economy" to the point it does not stop them from overtaking the world as the #1 economy, which they are on track to do in about 3 more years as I recall (it's amazingly fast, the China PNTR is only 9 years old and the projections are something like that, maybe 5 years).
Finding out just how much of the financial TARP/TALF went to China indirectly might be interesting. I know they demanded the U.S. "protect their investments" but I did not see China as a recipient (France on the other hand was) of any CDS payouts, etc.
New Deal Democrat has a post on the main EIs (economic indicators) and I started thinking about the correlation to this black swan event. In other words, when to the main EIs fail if they have ever failed, as a group?
Anyone want to tackle that analysis? I was thinking events like 9/11, WWII might be good data points.
No, clearly you do not know the statistics on what is going on with guest workers and no they are not here because they have skills not available in the United States, which has been shown in study after study, from the GAO to the NAB.
Also, we don't do that absurd racist xenophobe insult here on EP.
All this yammering is designed to try and get somebody else to solve our problem.
China is already investing domestically which will make their country stronger in the long run.
Eventually our spineless politicians will be forced to make some hard choices that will probably cost their jobs. The final piece in the puzzle is a currency devaluation. China is not going to move on anyone elses timeframe ... the US will be forced to devalue the USD...
And the ability of banks to provide credit. If they are not in position to lend then this will also be a drag on the economy.
... given our insistence on spending five to ten times as much on imprisoning people as is done in the civilized world, we don't have enough left over in state budgets to educate people. And at the same time, the Reagan focus on creating slack labor markets, maintained by Clinton and the Bushes, has led to massive qualifications inflation in many fields, as employers have gone from what they need to what they would substantially benefit from to arbitrary hurdles to get the most gung ho, least trouble making people.
The people in the high unemployment states are often not qualified to do the jobs filled by foreign guest workers, and since the foreign guest workers are far less likely to do inconvenient things like organizing for their rights, it makes a lot of sense for the corporate bottom line to specify arbitrary requirements that unemployed workers for high unemployment states have difficulty in filling.
On the other hand, the concept that we can fix this if only we have enough xenophobia has its own pitfalls.
In this much, we are in the same situation as prior recessions since WWII ... the downturn in consumption demand is not only those who cannot spend, but also those who are not sure whether or not they can spend.
When the economy hits the trough and there is a widespread perception that things have become as bad as they are going to get, those who find that they escaped the ax this time will engage in consumption that was postponed during the period of greatest uncertainty.
The problem is deeper than that ... the problem is, that resiliance by itself is not likely to be sufficient for a strong and sustained recovery ... and absent a Job Guarantee program, a strong and sustained recovery is required to see a substantial increase in employment.
Absent government policy, the four available growth drivers are investment in productive capacity, construction investment, debt-financed consumption, and exports.
Construction investment and debt-financed consumption are squashed as potential growth drivers by the ongoing weakness of balance sheets in the Finance Sector. Investment in productive capacity and exports are quashed by the determination to maintain an overvalued exchange rate, to maintain the lie about the affordability of our network of over 700 overseas bases, and the determination to maintain slack labor markets in service of the profits of large corporations.
And the Stimulus spending already in place is by design intended to cover less than half of the gap between current output and full employment output.
So absent government policy change, the recovery is likely to be sluggish at best, and could well run out of steam once postponed consumption has been met ... it could turn out, in other words, to be the GDP equivalent of the dead cat bounce.
Government policy can address that, but only if Congress decides to do so. And in order for Congress to decide to address the problem, we need a different Congress.
This is quite like the situation in the early years of the Roosevelt administration. If we only had the policies of the first two years of the "New Deal", it would have been a fairly miserable failure. It was, rather, the election of the New Dealers to Congress that led to the political pressure that created the far more important "Second New Deal".
Re ECRI -- they seem to say that the growth rate cycle upturn failed to catch on, and the depression ensued. But, that their leading index(es) anticipated the renewed weakness. This is my understanding of what they say on their site (I may be wrong), www.businesscycle.com, where they also raise the issue of a 'giant error of pessimism' near the end of recessions.
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