That's just a tax exempt account which means you pay out of pocket and should be just to cover deductibles. I just checked their rates and they cover less and are more expensive than Blue Cross out here.

So, even with max. individual insurance, believe me if something happens, it can bankrupt you anyway.

This is explaining a lot to me for it sounds like you're running on the denial and prayer plan. That's "oh nothing will happen to us" and when it does people get down on their knees and pray they survive (only to be bankrupt, wiped out by medical bills).

But my main point I keep going back to over and over is one cannot do by anecdote any comparative analysis. That's like me doing a mathematical proof by using examples. The answer is infinity, an "F" on the test, and one cannot run through all exemptions to in the aggregate compare.

I am not going to swim through more anecdotal horror stories instead of a correct analysis. If you do not understand my point, read the EP rules.

If you do not realize that the world is already full of these stories, many debunked and that the source of many is the corporate lobbyists, the vested interests, that the health care sector is expected to grow, in the trillions of market share and there are a host of MNCs who have a vested interest in protecting those profit margins and "growth" rates....I don't know what to tell you.

just telling these horror stories, many at this point not verified, isn't the issue here on aggregate analysis.

One can point to 10 horror stories in the United States for each one you come up with...so that means nothing in terms of systems and analysis.

I made a mistake, I don't know where I got that 8x. Original post is here. It's PPP and that is very different from GDP but more in tune with true cost of living. Note PPP ratios are off the charts and they have increased dramatically. This is 2006 data.

was that the average salary could purchase the average home. The funny thing now is that during the boom years... in order for a builder to increase his profits, with the same size lot, they would increase the square footage by building up.
So today .., the average home are these 3000 square foot houses on a postage stamp lot.

what a bone headed decision.

But seriously Robert, where did you get this idea (The biggest issue I find via OECD data is how the U.S. is 8x more costly than any other system)?

The OCED database says:

Total expenditure on health, % GDP

France 11

USA 15.2

Canada 9.8

UK 8

Switzerland 11.4

Total expenditure on health, Per capita US$ PPP

France 3117.0

USA 6014.0

Canada 3218.0

UK 2509.0

Switzerland 3990.0

The USA is more expensive but 8 times...you were just kidding?

I present the problems of the plans because there are many, many people that think there is not one darn problem going on with any universal plan.  It is just not true and quite poly-anna to think so.

I have a client who has a son working in Japan as a translator. Great job BTW.  But apparently Japan has ER problems and will send ambulances away, she e-mailed me some info that her son sent to her." if you call an ambulance, they then in turn have to call around to neighboring hospitals to see if the doctors in the emergency room have time to see another patient. As it goes, emergency rooms are often pretty busy and a lot of them say no."

More than 14,000 emergency patients were rejected from hospitals three or more times in 2007.

"my wife is (was) an ER doctor in Japan. She has "escaped" to the US due to the issues facing Japanese doctors.

There are several problems - firstly, Japan does not have a good samaritan law. In the US, if a doctor sees a person on the street needing help, the doctor can help that person, and will not be held liable if something bad happens (*as long as no payment is accepted by the doctor). In Japan, the doctor who helps the person on the street can then be sued (as a criminal and for a civil suit for money). This has happened.

Secondly, as far as the ER goes, apparently, if the patient in the ambulance is accepted by the ER of a hospital, and that ER then turns out to not be fully equipped to care for the patient, the accepting doctor can be (and have been) held liable in a criminal suit. Most ER's in Japan are small, and have only 1-3 doctors present at a time. Therefore, if you want to accept a patient, you have to be sure that you can take care of anything that might crop up, or else you may be dragged to jail. Example (true story): An opthamologist working in the ER accepted a guy punched in the face, took care of his face, then told him to come back the next day; the patient was sent to the police station, and ended up dying shortly after (allegedly of a "lung injury"). The doctor was arrested 12 hours after the patient died, and the guy who beat the patient was not."

Maybe there are just too many people because it seems there are so many insurmountable problems?

on those glorified McMansions. I remember about 7 years ago, driving through residential neighborhoods when they were literally trashing perfectly good houses on large lots (lots of nice grass, trees, bug lawn), to put up these massive houses and thus have "no lot".

Now they are just sitting there on the market. Awesome!

Maybe someday they can be group homes for the homeless. (nah, that would make too much sense!).

He also got some big brownie points on the corporate tax code recently.

I want more details before I believe it though but I agree with you (I wrote a "pre-story" over in the Instapopulist) that this is a very good sign.

But will they get down into the nitty gritty on some of these derivatives themselves. I frankly want the entire mathematical models "validated". From what I see a lot of these CDOs they are about as validated as betting on the Kentucky Derby by calculating the average diameter of hat size and then mapping that onto the horse's name length, calculated of course by numerology methods.

Here are some papers I found useful. But this is a Medusa topic, so organizing the stats into something manageable as an overview to even comparison contrast is a bitch to be frank. Fortunately blog databases hold lots of info!

The biggest issue I find via OECD data is how the U.S. is 8x more costly than any other system, with the worst overall health statistics. That alone should raise your eyebrows.

On EP are meta tags and the search engine. Here are the posts about health care which have various studies, references in them.

you can click on those meta tags (they are linked) and pop up all posts with the same tags too.

Here is the H.R. 676 "promo" site. It has a lot of good stats and is promoting this bill. Now bear in mind, all special interests have squeezed out these groups (primarily physicians, medical people) from the negotiating table. Also bear in mind, Ms. Pelosi is one hell of a corporate/special interest House leader so ya know, who knows what's going to pop out but we need to be diligent on what comes out of Congress....could be we get all of the illegals getting full coverage with the entire middle class footing the bill and left out of the picture (wouldn't surprise me!)

Frontline Sick around the world has a lot of links that back up their documentary.

Here is a WHO 2000 study comparing international systems.

Overall, I think you are focusing in on exceptions and horror stories and that is a huge mistake. You are focused on things like copays, instead of the overall average costs, out of pocket, taxes for citizens of Japan, Sweden, France, etc. and then the extremes of those costs, say for the ultimate healthy person to the ones will genetic disorders which have beyond belief daily costs (as an example). You cannot focus on some exceptions and minor details to see the big picture when it comes to system analysis/comparison/contrast. That's only good for the "tails" of the system, i.e. the problems with each one versus the overall effect on a society. I think it's making you forget about the U.S. horror stories. I'd say homelessness, or being dumped out onto the streets while being seriously ill is one hell of a horror story....let's look at those or people who plain die because they could not afford the preventative and early detection tests or treatment that would have saved their lives....

Also, and I agree with this one....with such lack of representation in D.C. plus their continual refusal to tackle the big issues in the national interest, the middle class interest....the idea of them coming up with a good health care reform is beyond frightening.

But in terms of France....while "your" money "disappears"
ya gotta realize so do your costs which is disappearing now anyway via insurance premiums, deductibles and copays and still if you get seriously ill, you're still screwed...you will not be able to work and then the entire house of cards come crashing down and you are almost guaranteed bankrupt with a major illness today.

Not unless you have a personal support system.

So my thing is costs. Right now the U.S., the entire system is so FUBAR, even in terms of getting real preventative check ups.

Crap like people being too fat...well, they also will not do anything about these overloaded calorie foods either...
in France they suck down the pastries but still the calories don't add up to a big mac....i.e. the food industry is loading up empty calories across the board in our foods! There are other issues too....it's not enough of a "walking" culture in that one fears for one's safety say in LA to go walking...very common in a lot of areas.

So, bottom line for me at elast is costs and no I do not want IBM or GE getting (they already did) medical technologies contracts. I want U.S. companies using U.S. workers, even if they have to do startups....to bring efficiencies. Online databases of medical records really is obvious but even pharmacies, they are completely inefficient with some seriously bad database designs, in flexible. Billing is beyond belief inefficient and all of those absurd insurance codes and people trying to work with them, plus get around them....that's another area.

Having to redo your medical records continuously and some of the technologies themselves, esp. labs/blood work, are beyond belief antiquated.

Then they bureaucratic costs are well documented and increase overall costs...legions of people in insurance companies trying to deny your claim in so many words. Medical practices spending more money, resources and their time dealing with insurance requirements that providing the actual care....list goes on and on.

Is CMS labor or CMS building management included in Medicare administration calculations and what is the cost of IRS to collect and distribute Medicare premiums?

Robert, I'm headed to 57 years old and have had dealings with medical insurance. I will agree that the "this is not a bill" paper is redundant. We must talk to our State about that one, they make the laws and I think they are mandated to send that "this is not a bill."

I know a guy that is a medical miracle. He tells me he has had $200,000 of cancer treatment. They even pay for him to go to John's Hopkins an out of State hospital. He has paid very little toward that $200,000 bill.

Funny you should mention duplicate papers. Today I received a paper from my son's high school. At the bottom it said:

White copy - Student
Yellow copy - division principal
Gold - guidance
Green - teacher

I didn't think such paperwork existed outside of the military.

BTW if I (at age 57 / son 15) can buy an insurance policy for @$240, it doesn't mean you need to be rich to get insured. For the $240 I get $8 million of coverage for me and $8 million for my son. All I care about is cancer, heart attacks and the like. So by freedom I mean allow me to worry about my own plan, my own financial plan. Why is that so hard to understand?

Create a health safety net and be done with it. I have no problem with a safety net.

Notice how I say our health plan has problems, give kudos to other plans but also point out the problems of other plans are real.

I have yet to see someone say, "yes their plans do have problems." It is almost like I step on toes when I point out the problems.