The definition of a depression is a recession lasting more than 24 months or one quarter of negative GDP > 10%. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth.
That said, what does one call it when GDP is not positive enough to generate jobs? Or the fact many researchers say some of GDP is erroneously attributed do to offshore production, up to 1% per quarter (annualized)?
The NBER defines these cycles and does not actually define a "double dip". Another controversy is how many economic indicators don't truly capture what's happening to the U.S. workforce, middle class, esp. when they classify an economic cycle period.
I cannot think of a better person to focus their attack on, as individuals. I have no idea what corporations, money is behind that guy but it's like listening to a psychotic read from an economics text. In other words it's gibberish, fantasy. Why anyone would say any pledge to this guy, even the pledge of allegiance, is beyond me.
Oh yeah, an Oath of office should supersede any pledge.
"So while I support the idea of the movement, I think it's being organized by a group that doesn't have any direction." -- Ira P.
Those organizing OWS appear to be a distributed network numbering in the thousands. Direction of the movement is therefore given coherency only as events develop. That is, the direction is dynamic and flexible, not static and fixed.
That said, it appears that the current direction of the movement as a whole is tending toward the agenda of the Occupy March to Washington. There is actually a specifically stated agenda there to expose the inequities of the tax system and related corruption of the Congress by explicitly demanding repeal of the Bush tax cuts. Although OWS has advanced no particular support for the Democrats, there is no doubt that the March to Washington can only be seen as a direct assault on the Norquist crew in Congress -- who insist that the notorious tax pledge of Republicans in Congress demands their opposition to any real reform to eliminate egregious loopholes in the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), beginning with the Bush tax cuts.
In effect, OWS demonstrators have become exemplars of fiscal conservatism -- much more so than Speaker Boehner and the Tea Party phonies who conspire with banksters and corporate news media to continue the well-known corrupt features of the Internal Revenue Code!
So there is an explicitly focused demand at this time! That's the basis for my vote -- unqualified YES!
WNGTIAM: We're Not Gonna Take It Any More. A non-profit organization.
Taxing the rich and adding an alcohol tax will generate 1/2 trillion in revenue /year to help us with our fiscal crisis.
Please vote at
http://www.change.org/petitions/house-senate-and-congress-tax-the-very-r...
I like the idea of the OWS movement. It's something that should have been done years ago by all of the unemployed and underemployed people across the country. The problem is that the movement seems to be more about trying to force company's to change rather than the government. They have no clear goals or defined agenda. The things that would open up jobs for them (e.g. restricting and enforcing immigration laws, changes to the tax code, cutting free trade agreements, etc.) are things they are afraid to say for the fear of being politically unpopular.
So while I support the idea of the movement, I think it's being organized by a group that doesn't have any direction.
Someone else is bothering to look at the statistics, over a period on permits vs. completions as well as apartments. Worth reading here. They point out expansion occurs when permits exceed completions.
I received in my mailbox a claim DHS is coordinating the crackdown. Not so, says Salon, with sources cited.
This post is an opinion piece. Watching hundreds of videos, hundreds of photos, images over today, I positively found myself disgusted with the police at this point.
How can someone defend corporations, banks, financial institutions and repress what are basically regular people who are trying to say something about it all?
They are so busy today and I too see police are getting way more brutal and the press is continuing to attempt to turn the public against OWS.
The more effective they are and especially drawing attention to lobbyists they more they will be attacked.
They blocked the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in D.C. for a bit and that's the propaganda machine dragon.
Looks like I'll have to put up maybe more "link/open" threads so we can keep up with the latest.
OWS has many, many twitter, live stream, youtube, websites and so on social media for the latest news and updates, so make sure you link up to them. They are scattered, I've linked to the main ones already but there are many more.
Six days remain for the Super Committee to get back to Congress with its fast-track proposals (demands?) -- due the day before Thanksgiving -- and not everyone is down with corporate media spin that the Super Committee "must not fail."
On November 23rd, the Congressional Deficit Reduction Super-Committee will meet to decide on whether or not to keep Obama's extension to the Bush tax-cuts - which only benefit the richest 1% of Americans in any kind of significant way. Luckily, a group of OWS'ers are embarking on a two-week march from Liberty Plaza to the Whitehouse to let the committee know what the 99% think about these cuts.
'Occupy The Highway: The 99% March to Washington' will reach Washington's doorstep on Saturday (19 November 2011), planning on stopping on Sunday for a "day off at Occupy Baltimore." The final items on the Occupy March itinerary are, as follows:
11/21/11: Occupy Baltimore to Laurel, MD
11/22/11: Laurel, MD to Occupy DC
11/23/11: Occupy DC to The White House for Super Committee meeting
Kleptocrats may ponder (paraphrasing here from Yeats' The Second Coming) "what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Washington to be born?"
Except this beast is hardly rough. Tough? Yes. Smart? Yes. Determined? Yes. But also entirely smooth, civilized, even sophisticated.
"as much as I wish OWS would move markets, to date, no way." -- Robert Oak
Well, yeah, of course. But you know me -- I can't resist going all out for a juicy headline. Reach exceeds grasp. Anyway, I remembered to put a question mark with it.
Occupy Wall Street protesters are preparing for new demonstrations after about 100 people were arrested near the New York Stock Exchange in the morning.
A solidarity protest in Los Angeles saw 20 people arrested for sitting in a street as hundreds marched downtown.
City officials in Dallas evicted the protesters' camp there, arresting 18.
In New York, demonstrators plan to occupy 16 subway stations on Thursday afternoon and march from City Hall across the Brooklyn Bridge.
Most of the arrests in New York happened at a rally to mark two months of protest. City officials had expected "tens of thousands" of protesters throughout the day.
Police blocked streets and protesters massed at junctions on the edge of the city's financial district.
Scuffles broke out, with police dragging some protesters away.
Later on Thursday, protesters in San Francisco occupied a branch of Bank of America, holding signs including one that read: "Make Banks Pay".
A police department spokesman told Reuters that 95 demonstrators were arrested at the bank, most on suspicion of trespassing.
Analysis by BBC's Laura Trevelyan:
It was tense at the corner of Wall Street and Broadway, with protesters shouting "shame" as police in riot gear arrested those they said were being disruptive. In the shadow of the New York Stock Exchange police erected barricades, keeping hundreds of protesters at bay. "Welcome to the police state," shouted demonstrators. "Get your corporate ID out."
as much as I wish OWS would move markets, todate, no way. As far as precious metals, commodities, that has much more to do with Europe, various CPIs and bond yields. Last night the Euro hit a new low against the Dollar, now that drives markets.
Protests continue strong around Wall Street. Corporate media can't ignore the phenomena, which were scheduled by corporate media and the powers-that-be to be ignorable after the police repression earlier this week broke up the happy campers. Barricades were supposed to be removed by now, but apparently they remain, and reports are that attorneys are complaining that they are unable to get through the barricades/check-points to meet filing dates for various documents. There have been reports that some protestors briefly blocked street traffic this morning.
Is there any correlation between the OWS protests and markets centered in NYC?
Looking at Bloomberg live streaming at the NYA:IND webpage during the past hour (2:00 PM to 3:00 PM EST), everything is down in USD terms. Although the Euro was briefly up against the USD, that didn't last long, so .... in summary .... Euro is down, NYSE is down, oil is down, gold is down, PM are all down -- but US 10-year Treasurys are up (shown on Bloomberg as yield down).
With European markets now closed for the night, sovereign (notably Spanish) bonds are down (yields are up), European stocks are in decline, with major banks leading the sell-off.
BNP Paribas SA and Societe Generale SA led a sell-off in banks, both dropping at least 3.9 percent as dollar funding costs for European lenders climbed to a three-year high. Mining companies tumbled with metal prices. ....
“You have a lot of pressure on yields, you have the structural issues, the liquidity issues, plus market fears -- it’s very bad,” said Patrick Legland, head of research at Societe Generale, on Bloomberg Television. “We are not very far from the point where the European Central Bank will need to intervene one way or another.”
Gold appears to be falling to around $1700, as platinum continues in the underdog position (???) at under $1600.
I agree and one would think asking about part time jobs wouldn't be so hard since it is a survey.
That said, we need a host of additional data points from the BLS. Frankly, we need immigration status asked on the CPS. Sorry, but "politically correct" shouldn't enter into data collection, esp. in this day and age of global labor arbitrage. It's important thing to know yet they do not collect it.
I think they need to expand the survey sizes too, plus I think they need to incorporate more easily non-civilian institutional population and not do a "yearly" Dec-Jan adjustment.
If you can believe this, to even some some aggregate information from businesses, many have forced our government, that's right our government, to sign NDAs to not release certain types of data, such as how many jobs were offshore outsourced.
Thanks for the compliment, I think in terms of information, esp. all of the graphs, the BLS group which generates this report does a fantastic job, although most of these economic reports I love to graph 'em up and translate to English, point out a few things.
The information is always available from the agencies, although sometimes one really must dig.
You did a great job putting this report together. Indicating that the jobs reported by the BLS includes part-time jobs is important, since they don't differentiate between full and part time jobs, unfortunately. Since this is a survey, you would think they could simply ask if the job is full or part time. Keep up the great efforts.
Gez, folks, I just called out a host of other sites, including Goldman Sachs. While Apple is doing a blow out and doing quite well, a $400 dollar iPhone simply does not compare to a $30,000 dollar car, what can we say.
I get the feeling iPxxx lovers believe Apple saves the world. They could....if they moved their manufacturing from China back to the United States. It's only about 1 million jobs to make these gadgets. Of course that would cut into Apple's profit margin, esp. to build new plants.
But hey, if you want Apple to be as American as pie, that's what needs to happen, only manufacturing scales like that for jobs.
I honestly think the entire nation needs to get out, protest, march and maybe we might get some change. But in terms of breaking through the political wall, even when you get your long shot guy into office, either they are then outgunned by "Congressional leadership", or they turn around and also become corrupted.
Regardless, the issues OWS talks about, most have been this site's mantras, themes, but by the math and stats, since 2008, so I sure as hell hope the movement grows. We need something which sticks to those basic economic issues which show the U.S. middle class, workforce has been decimated.
Since he came to the front, you can bet more "leaks" on his corporate, lobbyist ties will pop up.
Bottom line, any real candidates are getting a media blackout and what's left is "no choice", in other words, as usual, we don't have any choice. Obama is busy putting together the worst trade deal, NAFTA style, we've seen since the China PNTR. I don't know why the focus so often on NAFTA, sure it is awful, but it's the China PNTR which is the real disaster (evidenced by our outsourced manufacturing, trade deficit and "trade" of economic strength).
Obama is now spewing some minor rhetoric on China, but he's had 3 years to do something and brazenly refused. I don't believe a word of what he says.
"If this movement is what we think and hope it is, it won't matter that they can't stay overnight." -- Jersey
It's hard to hit a moving distributed-network target.
image from OccupyTheNation.com, 'Occupy the Highway'
Whatever the long-term consequences of the police repression may be -- and they are incalculable -- this movement has already done more to change the political landscape than would have been imaginable just 60 days ago.
The Founding Fathers would be proud in this creation rising out of their genius in enacting the First Amendment.
The definition of a depression is a recession lasting more than 24 months or one quarter of negative GDP > 10%. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth.
That said, what does one call it when GDP is not positive enough to generate jobs? Or the fact many researchers say some of GDP is erroneously attributed do to offshore production, up to 1% per quarter (annualized)?
The NBER defines these cycles and does not actually define a "double dip". Another controversy is how many economic indicators don't truly capture what's happening to the U.S. workforce, middle class, esp. when they classify an economic cycle period.
I cannot think of a better person to focus their attack on, as individuals. I have no idea what corporations, money is behind that guy but it's like listening to a psychotic read from an economics text. In other words it's gibberish, fantasy. Why anyone would say any pledge to this guy, even the pledge of allegiance, is beyond me.
Oh yeah, an Oath of office should supersede any pledge.
A recession here, a recession there -- pretty soon it adds up to a Second Great Depression.
Ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times!"
"So while I support the idea of the movement, I think it's being organized by a group that doesn't have any direction." -- Ira P.
Those organizing OWS appear to be a distributed network numbering in the thousands. Direction of the movement is therefore given coherency only as events develop. That is, the direction is dynamic and flexible, not static and fixed.
That said, it appears that the current direction of the movement as a whole is tending toward the agenda of the Occupy March to Washington. There is actually a specifically stated agenda there to expose the inequities of the tax system and related corruption of the Congress by explicitly demanding repeal of the Bush tax cuts. Although OWS has advanced no particular support for the Democrats, there is no doubt that the March to Washington can only be seen as a direct assault on the Norquist crew in Congress -- who insist that the notorious tax pledge of Republicans in Congress demands their opposition to any real reform to eliminate egregious loopholes in the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), beginning with the Bush tax cuts.
In effect, OWS demonstrators have become exemplars of fiscal conservatism -- much more so than Speaker Boehner and the Tea Party phonies who conspire with banksters and corporate news media to continue the well-known corrupt features of the Internal Revenue Code!
So there is an explicitly focused demand at this time! That's the basis for my vote -- unqualified YES!
WNGTIAM: We're Not Gonna Take It Any More. A non-profit organization.
Taxing the rich and adding an alcohol tax will generate 1/2 trillion in revenue /year to help us with our fiscal crisis.
Please vote at
http://www.change.org/petitions/house-senate-and-congress-tax-the-very-r...
I like the idea of the OWS movement. It's something that should have been done years ago by all of the unemployed and underemployed people across the country. The problem is that the movement seems to be more about trying to force company's to change rather than the government. They have no clear goals or defined agenda. The things that would open up jobs for them (e.g. restricting and enforcing immigration laws, changes to the tax code, cutting free trade agreements, etc.) are things they are afraid to say for the fear of being politically unpopular.
So while I support the idea of the movement, I think it's being organized by a group that doesn't have any direction.
Someone else is bothering to look at the statistics, over a period on permits vs. completions as well as apartments. Worth reading here. They point out expansion occurs when permits exceed completions.
I received in my mailbox a claim DHS is coordinating the crackdown. Not so, says Salon, with sources cited.
This post is an opinion piece. Watching hundreds of videos, hundreds of photos, images over today, I positively found myself disgusted with the police at this point.
How can someone defend corporations, banks, financial institutions and repress what are basically regular people who are trying to say something about it all?
They are so busy today and I too see police are getting way more brutal and the press is continuing to attempt to turn the public against OWS.
The more effective they are and especially drawing attention to lobbyists they more they will be attacked.
They blocked the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in D.C. for a bit and that's the propaganda machine dragon.
Looks like I'll have to put up maybe more "link/open" threads so we can keep up with the latest.
OWS has many, many twitter, live stream, youtube, websites and so on social media for the latest news and updates, so make sure you link up to them. They are scattered, I've linked to the main ones already but there are many more.
Six days remain for the Super Committee to get back to Congress with its fast-track proposals (demands?) -- due the day before Thanksgiving -- and not everyone is down with corporate media spin that the Super Committee "must not fail."
See --
'The People Rooting for the Super Committee to Fail' (The Atlantic Wire via Yahoo! News, 17 November 2011)
'Eight days left: Was super committee a bad idea from the start?' (Christian Science Monitor via Yahoo! News, 16 November 2011)
Meanwhile, from OccupyTheNation webpage:
'Occupy The Highway: The 99% March to Washington' will reach Washington's doorstep on Saturday (19 November 2011), planning on stopping on Sunday for a "day off at Occupy Baltimore." The final items on the Occupy March itinerary are, as follows:
11/21/11: Occupy Baltimore to Laurel, MD
11/22/11: Laurel, MD to Occupy DC
11/23/11: Occupy DC to The White House for Super Committee meeting
Kleptocrats may ponder (paraphrasing here from Yeats' The Second Coming) "what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Washington to be born?"
Except this beast is hardly rough. Tough? Yes. Smart? Yes. Determined? Yes. But also entirely smooth, civilized, even sophisticated.
"as much as I wish OWS would move markets, to date, no way." -- Robert Oak
Well, yeah, of course. But you know me -- I can't resist going all out for a juicy headline. Reach exceeds grasp. Anyway, I remembered to put a question mark with it.
I see photos around the net showing that police repression has continued today, with the usual brutality.
From BBC News, 17 November 2011 ("Last updated at 15:00 ET") --
as much as I wish OWS would move markets, todate, no way. As far as precious metals, commodities, that has much more to do with Europe, various CPIs and bond yields. Last night the Euro hit a new low against the Dollar, now that drives markets.
Protests continue strong around Wall Street. Corporate media can't ignore the phenomena, which were scheduled by corporate media and the powers-that-be to be ignorable after the police repression earlier this week broke up the happy campers. Barricades were supposed to be removed by now, but apparently they remain, and reports are that attorneys are complaining that they are unable to get through the barricades/check-points to meet filing dates for various documents. There have been reports that some protestors briefly blocked street traffic this morning.
Is there any correlation between the OWS protests and markets centered in NYC?
Looking at Bloomberg live streaming at the NYA:IND webpage during the past hour (2:00 PM to 3:00 PM EST), everything is down in USD terms. Although the Euro was briefly up against the USD, that didn't last long, so .... in summary .... Euro is down, NYSE is down, oil is down, gold is down, PM are all down -- but US 10-year Treasurys are up (shown on Bloomberg as yield down).
With European markets now closed for the night, sovereign (notably Spanish) bonds are down (yields are up), European stocks are in decline, with major banks leading the sell-off.
From a Bloomberg webpage --
Gold appears to be falling to around $1700, as platinum continues in the underdog position (???) at under $1600.
Can US Treasurys be the new gold?
I agree and one would think asking about part time jobs wouldn't be so hard since it is a survey.
That said, we need a host of additional data points from the BLS. Frankly, we need immigration status asked on the CPS. Sorry, but "politically correct" shouldn't enter into data collection, esp. in this day and age of global labor arbitrage. It's important thing to know yet they do not collect it.
I think they need to expand the survey sizes too, plus I think they need to incorporate more easily non-civilian institutional population and not do a "yearly" Dec-Jan adjustment.
If you can believe this, to even some some aggregate information from businesses, many have forced our government, that's right our government, to sign NDAs to not release certain types of data, such as how many jobs were offshore outsourced.
Thanks for the compliment, I think in terms of information, esp. all of the graphs, the BLS group which generates this report does a fantastic job, although most of these economic reports I love to graph 'em up and translate to English, point out a few things.
The information is always available from the agencies, although sometimes one really must dig.
You did a great job putting this report together. Indicating that the jobs reported by the BLS includes part-time jobs is important, since they don't differentiate between full and part time jobs, unfortunately. Since this is a survey, you would think they could simply ask if the job is full or part time. Keep up the great efforts.
Gez, folks, I just called out a host of other sites, including Goldman Sachs. While Apple is doing a blow out and doing quite well, a $400 dollar iPhone simply does not compare to a $30,000 dollar car, what can we say.
I get the feeling iPxxx lovers believe Apple saves the world. They could....if they moved their manufacturing from China back to the United States. It's only about 1 million jobs to make these gadgets. Of course that would cut into Apple's profit margin, esp. to build new plants.
But hey, if you want Apple to be as American as pie, that's what needs to happen, only manufacturing scales like that for jobs.
I honestly think the entire nation needs to get out, protest, march and maybe we might get some change. But in terms of breaking through the political wall, even when you get your long shot guy into office, either they are then outgunned by "Congressional leadership", or they turn around and also become corrupted.
Regardless, the issues OWS talks about, most have been this site's mantras, themes, but by the math and stats, since 2008, so I sure as hell hope the movement grows. We need something which sticks to those basic economic issues which show the U.S. middle class, workforce has been decimated.
Since he came to the front, you can bet more "leaks" on his corporate, lobbyist ties will pop up.
Bottom line, any real candidates are getting a media blackout and what's left is "no choice", in other words, as usual, we don't have any choice. Obama is busy putting together the worst trade deal, NAFTA style, we've seen since the China PNTR. I don't know why the focus so often on NAFTA, sure it is awful, but it's the China PNTR which is the real disaster (evidenced by our outsourced manufacturing, trade deficit and "trade" of economic strength).
Obama is now spewing some minor rhetoric on China, but he's had 3 years to do something and brazenly refused. I don't believe a word of what he says.
"If this movement is what we think and hope it is, it won't matter that they can't stay overnight." -- Jersey
It's hard to hit a moving distributed-network target.
image from OccupyTheNation.com, 'Occupy the Highway'
Whatever the long-term consequences of the police repression may be -- and they are incalculable -- this movement has already done more to change the political landscape than would have been imaginable just 60 days ago.
The Founding Fathers would be proud in this creation rising out of their genius in enacting the First Amendment.
See, www.occupythenation.com/news-and-updates/62-occupy-the-highway-the-99-march-to-washington
Pages