Being a stickler for accuracy pays off and so as far as Google is concerned, we're a news source, which I prefer. The entire point of this site is no economic fiction, well cited articles.
"•Since President Obama took office, 67 percent of employment growth has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal).
•There were 1.94 million more immigrants (legal and illegal) working in the third quarter of 2012 than at the start of 2009, when the president took office. This compares to a 938,000 increase for natives over the same time period.
•Natives have done better in the labor market recently. From the third quarter of 2011 to the third quarter of 2012, two-thirds of employment growth went to native-born workers."
...
"During the Bush administration a large share of employment growth also went to immigrants — 44 percent."
...
"It would a mistake to think that every job taken by an immigrant is a job lost by native. But it would also be a mistake to think that dramatically increasing the supply of workers has no impact on the employment prospects of natives, particularly given their dismal employment picture. ... This president, like those before him, has chosen not to reduce immigration despite the worst job market since the Great Depression."
This article is mostly based on government figures, some of which are provided in charts.
You have to wonder how the American public would react if they realized this is what is going on; they are being passed over in their own country for jobs.
As you indicate, politically people are all over the map, often supporting politicians whose votes and actions hurt them directly and indirectly.
It's good to know the MSM is actually out there examining places where people might disagree with them and/or bring far more research + varying opinions to the table.
Not exactly right, it was the engineer had malware plus his ftp over onto the live server brought the resident malware/virus along for the ride onto the live server. It's a combination of bad programming, which we see happening continually in HFT, causing a lot of damage and the buggy code does proliferate plus the Chinese infecting U.S. trading systems, which in turn infects the globe.
I agree, America is hurting. So, and forgive the transition, is now the opportune time to raise tax "rates"? We did hear a couple years ago, from the president, raising taxes on a weak economy is a bad idea. Why do you think the push now?
My google fu is weak: I haven't been able to find a good source for breaking down race and gender within economic quintiles. I did find the numbers on US poverty and they're fairly simple: within poverty, half the folks are non-Hispanic white, a quarter are black, and a quarter are Hispanic. But I can't get a clearer picture of the breakdown higher up, so I don't know when identity trumps economic class in the USA.
As for voting by their pocketbooks, pretty much anyone in hard times could see Romney wasn't going to help them. He was the darling of people who still had decent incomes and didn't want to share.
why it's in the comments. No way will a sex distraction "scandal" be on our front page. Privacy on the other hand and selling of our data, marketing, probing, profiling is huge business and we saw in election 2012, it was who had the best technology to spin the populace.
They're sucking you in. They focus on a story, cover it enough, go off in different directions each one with talking heads (e.g., what was the scandal? should affairs be courtmartial material? are affairs threats to national security by CIA directors? how many pushups did the woman actually do on "The Daily Show"? Who is the other woman? Who's worse in an affair - the married/unmarried man or married/unmarried woman?). Have fake experts on TV 24/7 on Fox, MNBC, CBS, in the NYT, WaPo, dedicate at least 1/2 of all editorials to it and nothing else, and mission accomplished.
And in every word and every word and minute devoted to these issues, there are fewer words and minutes devoted to jobs, China's gains through or designed losses, political corruption that benefits corporate donors, Social Security, Medicare, and our economic collapse brought by the same people that sponsor corporate TV "news" and other entertainment selling us products and spin. Until the next story they focus on or create to the exclusion of news that requires deep policy analysis and coverage. Just think of how many affairs and people behaving badly could be dealt with quickly and effectively while the media gives it just a few minutes and could do a decent job of it. No, instead it becomes the sole issue. Of course there are reasons this is done. Oh, look, there's another issue waiting in the wings as soon as this one is done to death by the puppetmasters. Is it a shooting in Iowa I never thought would matter to the entire world until CNN told me it mattered? Or a new burger that is too fatty according to Mayor Bloomberg? Or an airplane that has seats that are too narrow for the morbidly obese and we must know about 24/7? Did Mayor/Governor/Senator whoever just say something stupid/have another affair/kick a cat or dog? Must know, so the media tells me so.
The real outrage, or sin of General Petraeus is how could the director of the CIA be so unbelievably stupid as to send email with explicit sexual anything? Or use email at all?
He knows technology these days is one gigantic spy machine. He was head spy!
That's #1 on why this whole "scandal" sounds wag the dog. Here is this guy, he's head spy, director of the CIA, knows full well all of the technologies and analytics going on these days that spy, massive amounts of data coming in everywhere to identify you, to analyze, even predict behavior, where someone is at any given time, what they are doing, their patterns.....and he would use Google gmail? It doesn't add up. Even if you're on a self-destruct sexual obsession acting out psycho madness temporary insanity whatever thing, it still doesn't add up. I can't imagine anyone who is head of the CIA, even sexually obsessed to the point they were out of their gourd, being that stupid.
Has to be. Since when is "shirtless photo" anything at all, or make headlines? Right on and those vacation shots of people in bathing suits is just so clearly provocative, complete with bad tan lines and pot bellies. ;) This is clearly some sort of media blackout with b.s. snow.
General emailing photos of his junk, well, gee, ok, yet O'RLY? People in the military are supposed to have no sexuality at all to serve or ???
I think we're going to see something serious underneath all of this B.S., as in a bait-n-switch on something important to the American people, such as social security or national security or something.
There was a report that if true AND safe means great news economically for the U.S. That the U.S. would be the #1 oil producer and thus energy independent in just 8 years.
Thing is, I'm not so sure on the validity, plus fracking is seriously damaging the environment, water supply.
Still checking it out but economically, not importing oil, energy would be a HUGE boost to the economy, jobs, trade, costs...HUGE.
War on coal, war on Christmas (not sure if Jesus or Santa or whoever was fighting them won), war on drugs, war on terrorism. I think there's a war on the middle class, but it's not declared by TV studios yet. War on free thinking, war on reading, war on American jobs, war on securing our national security via outsourcing, war on common sense by idiots.
War on coal? I like coal, massive respect for those that risk life and limb to dig it out. I like energy. And I like people that build companies that provide energy safely and treat their workers' lives and welfare as if it was their own. But I'm tiring of the "If I don't get my way, it's those damn Commies running me out of business" noise.
Same thing was done by the robber barons back in the day. It wasn't capitalism, it was business that often broke laws and many, many times was the antithesis of ethical practices. Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, and the others are probably held in high esteem by those controlling our politicians nowadays, but anyone familiar with their lives and practices knows they weren't exactly role models for how all business should be conducted. And many, many workers were in a war, but a war to survive work conditions and armed gangs hired by the bosses.
Just to check the natural resources industries, China's got no war on energy. How are things for the coal miners? For the miners that die on a regular basis because of a lack of regulation + corruption? For entire rivers and communities that are dealing with environmental disasters caused by chemicals used by companies? Dams breaking? Etc.? Is that the dream? If only the nuclear industry didn't have so many rules and regulations. Damn, it must be war against nuclear power. Nothing could go wrong, right? And if it does, why, of course the CEOs and everyone else in charge would not fight accountability in court and would settle in the billions of dollars ASAP in the sense of fairness and justice for destroying a town, or city, or county, or nation or oceans or neighboring countries. I'm sure the CEO would willingly go to prison and not declare corporate bankruptcy to evade responsibilty.
Remember Massey Energy CEO on Fox blaming the feds and laws and regs for everything. And then remember the tragedy and everything he did? Was he a victim of a "war"? Let's ask Fox and the Chamber of Commerce.
I like "Harlan County USA" for a brief reminder of coal workers and what they were striking over back in the 1970s. It also gives a short summary of the industry (very brief).
Also, watch "Dangerous Journeys" on Current TV if you get it. Follow workers around the world. Great episode on sulfur miners in Indonesia that walk down into active volcanoes and get sulfur without protection. Basically they all lose their lungs, get cancer, and die very early under brutal conditions. Their pay is terrible, and they are paid in cigarettes (for spare money). Is that the dream of some American CEOs? If that's the case, by all means, I want them to spend a few weeks working there so they can experience the joys of such work. Not one complaint, we don't want to hear one.
Notice how the media and politicians and big business constantly need some issue that has nothing to do with jobs? Remember 2010 GOP was all about jobs, jobs, jobs, voted in, talked about abortion, and the "fiscal cliff" of 2010, and the 2012 election. Dems same thing, Obama is going to make jobs #1 issue, "laser-like focus," but dealt with every other issue, including a Cambridge police investigation that took the President's attention and the media covered. Funny, jobs just didn't require a "beer summit" or a summit of any kind involving the average American. There's always some other issue the media and big business and politicians can create or focus on.
Look, if military commanders had relationships that broke their obligations to their families and military law, then fire them and courtmartial them if appropriate. If relationships threatened national security via blackmail, everyone knows those threats, deal with it. Writers and other individuals broke their marriage vows and got involved in things other people would/should be fired for for completely unprofessional conduct, fire them and hold them accountable. But this is purposely covered to the exclusion of jobs, absolutely purposely.
Before this story was covered 24/7, it was the election of 2012 and the 2 years leading up to that and the "fiscal cliff." Uncertainty too must be mentioned at least 1000 times per day, unemployed Americans suffering and outsourcing are not. And the EU crisis/ponzi scheme that goes on for 4+ years now. And Romney's dog on a roof. And the shooting in Florida that got 24/7 media coverage for a few months. Syria, before that Libya, and Iran.
You know what's never covered and for the reason that the politicians and the people that bankroll them know they make $ every day it's not covered and kill more American jobs every day it's not covered? Jobs, outsourcing, and visa abuses. And if there's not a national or international issue to distract folks, the media and politicians will focus on local crime stories like the Florida mother that was tried for killing her daughter that CNN/Nancy Grace covered and screamed on the airwaves about for month after month. The media plays its role like good servants, and the people that prosper from distractions love that the media for it.
The dalliances of high military brass is simply filling up all of the press airspace at this point. Beyond "WTF" the real juice is what is this all really about? It seems very similar to the claim a U.S. embassy was attacked over a youtube. Wag the dog.
it becomes truth. This is a corporate lobbyist trick, bar none. The media parrots these lies as well although I think most Americans caught on a long time ago. The problem is there is no choice in elections really.
Keep on repeating the skills gap lie, and someone somewhere will buy it.
I could put an ad in a paper tomorrow asking for people to work for free, drive their own vehicles to carry out work for me after they report to some office that is 50 miles from the nearest city, pay for their own gas, no benefits, and demand the people pass 5 interviews I will conduct with less than 2 hours notice beforehand. Also, I expect them to conduct bookkeeping for me along with marketing, warehouse operations, design and build my products, etc., work weekends and holidays on demand, and have at least a BA, but I'd prefer a Masters or PhD. Bilingual too, and if you know Portguese or Arabic or Mandarin or Farsi, that might help you. Oh, no one with families either because they drain time away from serving me and mine. And no one with too much debt because I want you to work for me for the love of the job, not for $ and I can't take a risk you'll jump ship for a paying job. Also, if you know anything about minimum wage laws or OSHA rules and regs, don't bother applying. And people that have experience leading teams or not serving like dogs for at least 2-5 years to some corporate boss somewhere immediately before, don't apply - I don't trust people that might question me or make me look bad. If you have more than 5 years of experience, don't apply - "overqualified." If you want to advance in your career, don't apply. And . . . look at that, I can't find anyone qualified. Damn skills gap! Help me Chamber of Commerce! Time to ship the job overseas.
It's looking possible that our estimate of $50 billion in economic activity losses and this is for fourth quarter GDP, it's not transfers due to insurance payouts, losses, it would be elements which go into making up national GDP, is a low ball estimate. After some more dust settles and we get better estimates we'll try to update how badly this will impact Q4 GDP. For now we can say for sure it will shave off half a percentage point. Sandy is coming in as the second most expensive storm. Katrina is number one which is why we used Katrina estimates in this article.
The claim the cannot find people who can write is absurd. We have 33% of returning Vets unemployed and the black unemployment for vets is 40%. I'm fairly certain the military rejects people who cannot read or write and the requirements change but I believe one cannot get in with a GED currently.
It's like they cherry picked bad employers who want to pay $12/hr for skilled manufacturing, which is ridiculous.
Being a stickler for accuracy pays off and so as far as Google is concerned, we're a news source, which I prefer. The entire point of this site is no economic fiction, well cited articles.
http://cis.org/who-got-jobs-during-obama-presidency
Here are some points I picked out:
"•Since President Obama took office, 67 percent of employment growth has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal).
•There were 1.94 million more immigrants (legal and illegal) working in the third quarter of 2012 than at the start of 2009, when the president took office. This compares to a 938,000 increase for natives over the same time period.
•Natives have done better in the labor market recently. From the third quarter of 2011 to the third quarter of 2012, two-thirds of employment growth went to native-born workers."
...
"During the Bush administration a large share of employment growth also went to immigrants — 44 percent."
...
"It would a mistake to think that every job taken by an immigrant is a job lost by native. But it would also be a mistake to think that dramatically increasing the supply of workers has no impact on the employment prospects of natives, particularly given their dismal employment picture. ... This president, like those before him, has chosen not to reduce immigration despite the worst job market since the Great Depression."
This article is mostly based on government figures, some of which are provided in charts.
You have to wonder how the American public would react if they realized this is what is going on; they are being passed over in their own country for jobs.
As you indicate, politically people are all over the map, often supporting politicians whose votes and actions hurt them directly and indirectly.
It's good to know the MSM is actually out there examining places where people might disagree with them and/or bring far more research + varying opinions to the table.
My doomsday scenario on HFT as part of Obama nightmares for second term piece.
Not exactly right, it was the engineer had malware plus his ftp over onto the live server brought the resident malware/virus along for the ride onto the live server. It's a combination of bad programming, which we see happening continually in HFT, causing a lot of damage and the buggy code does proliferate plus the Chinese infecting U.S. trading systems, which in turn infects the globe.
Close nuf, you get the idea.
We've shown this over and over again. Cutting taxes on the rich doesn't not create jobs.
The only taxes under consideration to be raised are [personal income for those making $250k and over for couples.
I linked to one large group of exit polls in this post and we didn't find any income by gender and race exit polls either. This is the best we found:
Romney : $50,000 to $99,999, 52% to 46%
Romney: $100,000 to $199,999, 54% to 44%
Romney: > $200,000 or more, 54% to 44%.
Obama: < $30,000, 62% to 35%
Obama: $30,000 to $49,999, 56% to 42%.
Romney had a couple of positions that were better than Obama for low income U.S. citizens, China and immigration.
I agree, America is hurting. So, and forgive the transition, is now the opportune time to raise tax "rates"? We did hear a couple years ago, from the president, raising taxes on a weak economy is a bad idea. Why do you think the push now?
My google fu is weak: I haven't been able to find a good source for breaking down race and gender within economic quintiles. I did find the numbers on US poverty and they're fairly simple: within poverty, half the folks are non-Hispanic white, a quarter are black, and a quarter are Hispanic. But I can't get a clearer picture of the breakdown higher up, so I don't know when identity trumps economic class in the USA.
As for voting by their pocketbooks, pretty much anyone in hard times could see Romney wasn't going to help them. He was the darling of people who still had decent incomes and didn't want to share.
why it's in the comments. No way will a sex distraction "scandal" be on our front page. Privacy on the other hand and selling of our data, marketing, probing, profiling is huge business and we saw in election 2012, it was who had the best technology to spin the populace.
They're sucking you in. They focus on a story, cover it enough, go off in different directions each one with talking heads (e.g., what was the scandal? should affairs be courtmartial material? are affairs threats to national security by CIA directors? how many pushups did the woman actually do on "The Daily Show"? Who is the other woman? Who's worse in an affair - the married/unmarried man or married/unmarried woman?). Have fake experts on TV 24/7 on Fox, MNBC, CBS, in the NYT, WaPo, dedicate at least 1/2 of all editorials to it and nothing else, and mission accomplished.
And in every word and every word and minute devoted to these issues, there are fewer words and minutes devoted to jobs, China's gains through or designed losses, political corruption that benefits corporate donors, Social Security, Medicare, and our economic collapse brought by the same people that sponsor corporate TV "news" and other entertainment selling us products and spin. Until the next story they focus on or create to the exclusion of news that requires deep policy analysis and coverage. Just think of how many affairs and people behaving badly could be dealt with quickly and effectively while the media gives it just a few minutes and could do a decent job of it. No, instead it becomes the sole issue. Of course there are reasons this is done. Oh, look, there's another issue waiting in the wings as soon as this one is done to death by the puppetmasters. Is it a shooting in Iowa I never thought would matter to the entire world until CNN told me it mattered? Or a new burger that is too fatty according to Mayor Bloomberg? Or an airplane that has seats that are too narrow for the morbidly obese and we must know about 24/7? Did Mayor/Governor/Senator whoever just say something stupid/have another affair/kick a cat or dog? Must know, so the media tells me so.
The real outrage, or sin of General Petraeus is how could the director of the CIA be so unbelievably stupid as to send email with explicit sexual anything? Or use email at all?
He knows technology these days is one gigantic spy machine. He was head spy!
That's #1 on why this whole "scandal" sounds wag the dog. Here is this guy, he's head spy, director of the CIA, knows full well all of the technologies and analytics going on these days that spy, massive amounts of data coming in everywhere to identify you, to analyze, even predict behavior, where someone is at any given time, what they are doing, their patterns.....and he would use Google gmail? It doesn't add up. Even if you're on a self-destruct sexual obsession acting out psycho madness temporary insanity whatever thing, it still doesn't add up. I can't imagine anyone who is head of the CIA, even sexually obsessed to the point they were out of their gourd, being that stupid.
Has to be. Since when is "shirtless photo" anything at all, or make headlines? Right on and those vacation shots of people in bathing suits is just so clearly provocative, complete with bad tan lines and pot bellies. ;) This is clearly some sort of media blackout with b.s. snow.
General emailing photos of his junk, well, gee, ok, yet O'RLY? People in the military are supposed to have no sexuality at all to serve or ???
I think we're going to see something serious underneath all of this B.S., as in a bait-n-switch on something important to the American people, such as social security or national security or something.
There was a report that if true AND safe means great news economically for the U.S. That the U.S. would be the #1 oil producer and thus energy independent in just 8 years.
Thing is, I'm not so sure on the validity, plus fracking is seriously damaging the environment, water supply.
Still checking it out but economically, not importing oil, energy would be a HUGE boost to the economy, jobs, trade, costs...HUGE.
War on coal, war on Christmas (not sure if Jesus or Santa or whoever was fighting them won), war on drugs, war on terrorism. I think there's a war on the middle class, but it's not declared by TV studios yet. War on free thinking, war on reading, war on American jobs, war on securing our national security via outsourcing, war on common sense by idiots.
War on coal? I like coal, massive respect for those that risk life and limb to dig it out. I like energy. And I like people that build companies that provide energy safely and treat their workers' lives and welfare as if it was their own. But I'm tiring of the "If I don't get my way, it's those damn Commies running me out of business" noise.
Same thing was done by the robber barons back in the day. It wasn't capitalism, it was business that often broke laws and many, many times was the antithesis of ethical practices. Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, and the others are probably held in high esteem by those controlling our politicians nowadays, but anyone familiar with their lives and practices knows they weren't exactly role models for how all business should be conducted. And many, many workers were in a war, but a war to survive work conditions and armed gangs hired by the bosses.
Just to check the natural resources industries, China's got no war on energy. How are things for the coal miners? For the miners that die on a regular basis because of a lack of regulation + corruption? For entire rivers and communities that are dealing with environmental disasters caused by chemicals used by companies? Dams breaking? Etc.? Is that the dream? If only the nuclear industry didn't have so many rules and regulations. Damn, it must be war against nuclear power. Nothing could go wrong, right? And if it does, why, of course the CEOs and everyone else in charge would not fight accountability in court and would settle in the billions of dollars ASAP in the sense of fairness and justice for destroying a town, or city, or county, or nation or oceans or neighboring countries. I'm sure the CEO would willingly go to prison and not declare corporate bankruptcy to evade responsibilty.
Remember Massey Energy CEO on Fox blaming the feds and laws and regs for everything. And then remember the tragedy and everything he did? Was he a victim of a "war"? Let's ask Fox and the Chamber of Commerce.
I like "Harlan County USA" for a brief reminder of coal workers and what they were striking over back in the 1970s. It also gives a short summary of the industry (very brief).
Also, watch "Dangerous Journeys" on Current TV if you get it. Follow workers around the world. Great episode on sulfur miners in Indonesia that walk down into active volcanoes and get sulfur without protection. Basically they all lose their lungs, get cancer, and die very early under brutal conditions. Their pay is terrible, and they are paid in cigarettes (for spare money). Is that the dream of some American CEOs? If that's the case, by all means, I want them to spend a few weeks working there so they can experience the joys of such work. Not one complaint, we don't want to hear one.
Notice how the media and politicians and big business constantly need some issue that has nothing to do with jobs? Remember 2010 GOP was all about jobs, jobs, jobs, voted in, talked about abortion, and the "fiscal cliff" of 2010, and the 2012 election. Dems same thing, Obama is going to make jobs #1 issue, "laser-like focus," but dealt with every other issue, including a Cambridge police investigation that took the President's attention and the media covered. Funny, jobs just didn't require a "beer summit" or a summit of any kind involving the average American. There's always some other issue the media and big business and politicians can create or focus on.
Look, if military commanders had relationships that broke their obligations to their families and military law, then fire them and courtmartial them if appropriate. If relationships threatened national security via blackmail, everyone knows those threats, deal with it. Writers and other individuals broke their marriage vows and got involved in things other people would/should be fired for for completely unprofessional conduct, fire them and hold them accountable. But this is purposely covered to the exclusion of jobs, absolutely purposely.
Before this story was covered 24/7, it was the election of 2012 and the 2 years leading up to that and the "fiscal cliff." Uncertainty too must be mentioned at least 1000 times per day, unemployed Americans suffering and outsourcing are not. And the EU crisis/ponzi scheme that goes on for 4+ years now. And Romney's dog on a roof. And the shooting in Florida that got 24/7 media coverage for a few months. Syria, before that Libya, and Iran.
You know what's never covered and for the reason that the politicians and the people that bankroll them know they make $ every day it's not covered and kill more American jobs every day it's not covered? Jobs, outsourcing, and visa abuses. And if there's not a national or international issue to distract folks, the media and politicians will focus on local crime stories like the Florida mother that was tried for killing her daughter that CNN/Nancy Grace covered and screamed on the airwaves about for month after month. The media plays its role like good servants, and the people that prosper from distractions love that the media for it.
The dalliances of high military brass is simply filling up all of the press airspace at this point. Beyond "WTF" the real juice is what is this all really about? It seems very similar to the claim a U.S. embassy was attacked over a youtube. Wag the dog.
it becomes truth. This is a corporate lobbyist trick, bar none. The media parrots these lies as well although I think most Americans caught on a long time ago. The problem is there is no choice in elections really.
Keep on repeating the skills gap lie, and someone somewhere will buy it.
I could put an ad in a paper tomorrow asking for people to work for free, drive their own vehicles to carry out work for me after they report to some office that is 50 miles from the nearest city, pay for their own gas, no benefits, and demand the people pass 5 interviews I will conduct with less than 2 hours notice beforehand. Also, I expect them to conduct bookkeeping for me along with marketing, warehouse operations, design and build my products, etc., work weekends and holidays on demand, and have at least a BA, but I'd prefer a Masters or PhD. Bilingual too, and if you know Portguese or Arabic or Mandarin or Farsi, that might help you. Oh, no one with families either because they drain time away from serving me and mine. And no one with too much debt because I want you to work for me for the love of the job, not for $ and I can't take a risk you'll jump ship for a paying job. Also, if you know anything about minimum wage laws or OSHA rules and regs, don't bother applying. And people that have experience leading teams or not serving like dogs for at least 2-5 years to some corporate boss somewhere immediately before, don't apply - I don't trust people that might question me or make me look bad. If you have more than 5 years of experience, don't apply - "overqualified." If you want to advance in your career, don't apply. And . . . look at that, I can't find anyone qualified. Damn skills gap! Help me Chamber of Commerce! Time to ship the job overseas.
It's looking possible that our estimate of $50 billion in economic activity losses and this is for fourth quarter GDP, it's not transfers due to insurance payouts, losses, it would be elements which go into making up national GDP, is a low ball estimate. After some more dust settles and we get better estimates we'll try to update how badly this will impact Q4 GDP. For now we can say for sure it will shave off half a percentage point. Sandy is coming in as the second most expensive storm. Katrina is number one which is why we used Katrina estimates in this article.
The claim the cannot find people who can write is absurd. We have 33% of returning Vets unemployed and the black unemployment for vets is 40%. I'm fairly certain the military rejects people who cannot read or write and the requirements change but I believe one cannot get in with a GED currently.
It's like they cherry picked bad employers who want to pay $12/hr for skilled manufacturing, which is ridiculous.
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